Curse

Narcin · Jan 19, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

wont get into this whole arguement... all i have to say is...no names, and since, it has been a bitch to monk in GvG or HA. i asked a guy running the bot myself, hes running 7 interupts, i also enjoy the 3 times in a row he power blocked my channeling....

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

So bot in PvP (RBR) do exist. as many of you claim to be able to beat those bot. and you do know it exist, how else you gonna know you are better then the bot, right? and how the programmer of the bot does not know the route any better then you guys do?

I don't think said bot exists, and if it does it's probably bad.

You have a limited amount of time available to you during events. Either you're doing research, or you're losing ground to the field. Debugging bot code takes away from time that could be used to improve your route. It follows that the coder of a bot doesn't know the route as well as players that dedicate their entire effort to improving their runs.

Borat: you're just plain wrong about syncing. If you're good enough, it isn't rational. If you suck and you can't get a top 100 time without syncing, it's rational. But if that's the case, you'd still be better off investing the time in learning to play better. Then you don't have to sync, and can get more quality runs as a result.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I don't think said bot exists, and if it does it's probably bad.

You have a limited amount of time available to you during events. Either you're doing research, or you're losing ground to the field. Debugging bot code takes away from time that could be used to improve your route. It follows that the coder of a bot doesn't know the route as well as players that dedicate their entire effort to improving their runs.

Borat: you're just plain wrong about syncing. If you're good enough, it isn't rational. If you suck and you can't get a top 100 time without syncing, it's rational. But if that's the case, you'd still be better off investing the time in learning to play better. Then you don't have to sync, and can get more quality runs as a result.

You keep contradicting yourself. At one end, you're saying that a bot could NEVER anticipate the usage of shields, or the actions of other players, WHICH ARE THE ONLY VARIABLES IN ROLLERBEETLE RACING. (The map, boxes, everything else is static)
Yet now you claim CONTROLLING those other players does NOT net you any advantage?

Your intire arguement is based on the fact that a bot could never anticipate other people's behaviour (the only variable, again), yet now you claim that those same "other players" don't affect your play whatsoever?

Those are the 2 complete opposites, I think this "e-fight has been won. (Not wether or not bots exist, but if bots would truly be better)

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

It costs time to be able to control the other players. It isn't worth the time invested. Seriously.

A basic TFT with one other player costs you half your available runs. That's a huge cost to pay. It gets worse as you add additional players to the scheme, but at a diminishing rate (although it gets harder to pack them all into the run).

I can get 1/6 clean runs without having to sync five players into the run. In fact, I can do a lot better than that...without the cost of having to repay other players for protecting me!

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Ok, but if you have enough guildies syncing, even if 2-3 each time, how will this hurt you?

I'm not arguing that syncing itself is a bitch, I'm saying that, once you've mastered the "skill of RBR" (which is something a bot could duplicate PERFECTLY), the only variable left is other people.

And the only "worry" you have there is kd's. If you can make sure they don't KD you (as in, you have guildies), you can just go about, and hope for the best boxes you can possibly get.

You guys keep talking about "magical" skill. What is this "skill" you talk about. Next thing up, you're going to say RBR detects your life-force, and the more you use the force, the better your time will be.

I know I'm rediculing it now, but that's exactly how I feel when I read your arguements. You can't seem to accept the fact at the end of the day Rollerbeetle racing is nothing more than cutting corners perfectly, and timing your speed boosts perfectly. Everything else is just random and/or luck. And everything a player can add to that, a bot can aswell, only better.

Did I ever say those botters in question were BAD at RBR? For some reason, you started talking about: "A real person will ALWAYS be faster because it knows the optimal routes". Well YOU MISSED MY INTIRE POINT. The BOT IS SUPPOSED TO USE THE OPTIMAL ROUTE, HENCE "BOT".

And that's exactly what I felt when facing certain top 100 players (multiple times), each time, their movement "felt" botlike. It's like talking to one of those AI programs. They MIMIC, or do their best atleast, human behaviour, but you can still find some AI behaviour.

The exact same route they take. They almost identical scores. The way some corners get cut in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. (Exactly the same angle) This is something a real player could do, just like interrupting 1/4's, just not at a consistent rate. And that's exactly what some of these RB racers are doing, with up to 25 characters/acounts in the top 100 rankings...

Polgara Val · Jan 19, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Bottom line is a bot no matter how sophisiticated no matter how many ways you programme it to do "when this happens do this" can ever outpace the top RBR racers.

It simply doesent have what the human brain can do, to aniticipate and adjust to almost an infinite amount of variables and things that can occur during a race, baring the static things that always occur.

Pol

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Ok, but if you have enough guildies syncing, even if 2-3 each time, how will this hurt you?

It won't help. I would have to support them when it is in my interest not to do so.

Further, their presence will disrupt my efforts to take the most optimal line, unless I have the best ping. But if that's the case, I will disrupt their efforts, and they are better off not syncing with me.

It follows that syncing can't obtain, given that the players involved are all good. It only makes sense if no one in the scheme is good enough to post a top 100 score without syncing.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It won't help. I would have to support them when it is in my interest not to do so.

Further, their presence will disrupt my efforts to take the most optimal line, unless I have the best ping. But if that's the case, I will disrupt their efforts, and they are better off not syncing with me.

It follows that syncing can't obtain, given that the players involved are all good. It only makes sense if no one in the scheme is good enough to post a top 100 score without syncing.

Ok, THEIR presence will cause a hazard, but non-syncers won't? You're putting everything upside down now, I think...

Let me recapitulate what the point was here:

"Syncing is better than not syncing", and as a counter-arguement, you say: "Syncers will body block you". How does that make any sense? Are you hereby claiming that other people (non syncers) DON'T body block you?

The very essence of syncing in is to create a flawless run for 1 individual... Heck, you could even have all your guildies leave so that you can have a nice solo run. (I never tried it, but I think it lets you finish the map)

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

You need to compare the two relevant states of the world:

1) You don't sync and are paired with five randoms.
2) You do sync and have a quid-pro-quo with the players you sync with.

If the five randoms were better than they are, syncing would make sense. But they aren't, and it doesn't. Returning the favor 50%+ of the time is irrational, because proper Shield usage can get you more quality runs than syncing could.

If you're always getting the quality run due to syncing, then your partners would be better off not syncing with you. Now, I'm excluding the possibility that you have some external hold over them (such as inclusion in your HA teams) that permits you to get 100% compliance from your partners. While you might have that, the rest of us don't.

tyrant rex · Jan 19, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

mini games in a dead game sure are serious

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You need to compare the two relevant states of the world:

1) You don't sync and are paired with five randoms.
2) You do sync and have a quid-pro-quo with the players you sync with.

If the five randoms were better than they are, syncing would make sense. But they aren't, and it doesn't. Returning the favor 50%+ of the time is irrational, because proper Shield usage can get you more quality runs than syncing could.

If you're always getting the quality run due to syncing, then your partners would be better off not syncing with you. Now, I'm excluding the possibility that you have some external hold over them (such as inclusion in your HA teams) that permits you to get 100% compliance from your partners. While you might have that, the rest of us don't.

I never claimed you guys were syncing, tough I have find Yuris with another guildie in that same run. (Probably was coincidental)

But even then your claim still is wrong, for the obvious reason that do not need to "win" every run. Alot depends on the first box, so you can just rush for that one, and whichever gets that one gets carte blanche for the rest of the match.
Also, once you do get a couple of clean runs, it's only a matter of time before you get enough lucky boxes to get a top 100 score. Thus, you can afford to return the favor, as you already have your position in top 100.

Syncing will ALWAYS be better than non-syncing, just as much as a bot will always be able to play better than a player. RBR is nothing more than routine. Using the right skills at the right time (and again, cutting corners), this is the sole reason why bots exist, to do routine jobs for us...

Greedy Gus · Jan 19, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It would make me furious if it really were an issue.

I still haven't seen the dodge/pickup claim proven.

I know that botting RBR isn't plausible.

The bots aren't going to get you gold capes. Champ points, yes. But that title was already wrecked by an uglier exploit. The problem with the interrupt bots is that they are predictable. This isn't an FPS; machine-like precision can be an exploitable disadvantage in a strategy game.

What is wrong with you guy? It's this kind of denial & downplaying of bots that gives anet reason to ignore it, like the debate is still out or something. People talk openly about using bots in vent these days and the evidence is overwhelming. This is a serious charge and anet's feet should be held to the fire on it, instead of giving them more breathing room.

And if his charges are at all apt that you're in a guild that has never accomplished much except for flawlessly playing minigames over & over, then people should really rethink your neutrality as a side of the debate. Even if you are squeaky clean personally, you're as much defending your guild as denying botting.

HawkofStorms · Jan 19, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

I think you are missing Martin's point Killed. If 5 players are syncing and are all good enough to get top 100 times, it would be better for them each to play with randoms and have 5 times as many runs, then to be able to attempt a top 100 time run 1 every 5 runs if they are quid-pro-quoing it.

@Greedy. Bots exist. THIS bot, doesn't exist. It's the fact that people are just making random crap up that is why Martin and others are getting defensive.

Kattar · Jan 19, 2010, 08:04 PM // 20:04

No names or links to outside websites are going to be allowed here. Just a heads up.

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

You can't just rush for the first box. There's a clearly optimal line to reach that box, and if everyone squabbles over it all of you will rubber band and lag.

No one good will settle for one position in the top 100.

Yes, syncing is superior to not syncing...so long as you blindly ignore the costs of syncing. If you modeled the function correctly, you'd realize that you're better off not syncing.

I never suggested that you brought up syncing. When it was brought up by someone else (as it regularly has been in the past), I replied to the issue. From the individual player's perspective, it is never rational to sync if you can produce top 100 times without syncing. While syncing confers an advantage, the time costs (executing the sync and repaying the favor) make syncing inefficient.

The top players are out for #1 and no one else. It's generally understood among top players that you do not mess with one another's runs, but that just exemplifies Axelrod's proof about cooperation in iterated Prisoner's Dilemma games.

@ Gus: Again, I'm not denying the existence of the bots in GvG. What I'm saying is that they are dumb, and that quality humans can exploit that. I completely agree that they are reprehensible and should be removed from the game ASAP. That said, I don't think that they are the problem that players make them out to be. They are lousy strategic actors; they play the same maximization function irrespective of what you do. There are ways to exploit that.

Karate Jesus · Jan 19, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

-Interrupt bot (Another version, which allows multiple bar set-ups, as well as more complicated actions -Glyph of Essence Diversion "interrupting" eg)
-Pick-Up bot (comonly used in Snowball arenas by multiple guilds)
-Dodge bot (As the above, usually is integrated in the pick-up bot)
-Rollerbeetle bot (Multiple version, some use click to move -which works through packet pinging-, others have "flawless" pre-recorded routes, and the bot optimizes strafing/corner cutting)
-Weapon swapping bot (This will allow you to set parameters for certain bars, and the bot will then weapon swap for you. I have seen this in action in high-end GvG already, I won't call out names)

These are existing bots, which see use every day. There also is some other projects which are not within my grasp, or simply kept low by that community themselves.

You left out the GvG spike bots. They're far more common than interrupt bots, and far more dangerous.

And I've never heard of dodge bots or pick-up bots.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Well spike bots are a more advanced application, as it would require a server of some sort to organize the spikes on each individual computer. But yes, I have heard of spike bots before. (By those people who made the other bots) Tough it would be much less effective in practical appliance as other bots.

Player can create good enough of spikes themselves, so I dont see the need to bot such a thing.

Also Martin, I get your point, but mine still stands: Some of you are going to rubberband, but atleast 1 is always going to get "luck" enough to get the fastest route, and thus the rest should make sure he gets his flawless run. (By Kd'ing the non syncers)

Tough I DO agree, and understand on your point that syncing itself doesn't net you an incredible advantage, due to the cost it comes at. (Which is return the favor) I was merely pointing out that the sync itself can clearly propel a single player forward, and give him a nice base to create top scores.

@Hawk: Martin is indeed in one of the guilds I'm referring to, and I would happily allow him to change my posts in order to keep his identity "secret". I also, by no means, mean to call out that individual guild. As I've said with Snowball At's, I don't want to get them banned, I'm asking Anet to CHECK and REVIEW the logs of the top 100 players. I KNOW they (or some of them are botting) as I KNOW the bot exists, and I've seen their play correspond with that behaviour. I can't expect Martin NOT do defend his guild (No person wants to admit to botting, or that his/her friends are botters). So I can understand him being defensive.

All I'm asking is the same thing from him. We KNOW bots exists, interrupt bots, DnD/pickup bots, ... We KNOW certain guilds used those bots in Snowball Arenas (Anyone who has ever faced them would understand), and we (well I) KNOW most of these rollerbeetle players happen to be in that same guild. (The "guy" *You can blank out his name from before if you want mod* I mentioned earlier was also in that snowball guild, also botting)

Come on, that's atleast a little suspicious, no?

...

And again, I do NOT want them banned, I merely want a chance at a top 100 score, without having to compete against bots...

-Pluto- · Jan 19, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

They are lousy strategic actors; they play the same maximization function irrespective of what you do. There are ways to exploit that.

Absurd! I can sort of see this argument for straight up competition against a bot (ie, rupt bots in gvg), but roller-beetle is indirect competition. How the hell can you abuse the rigidity of a bot if you never actually get to encounter it while it's out there posting a perfect score in its own instance with a bunch of scrubs who don't have the skills, knowledge, or even the desire to do anything about a botting player? Bots in roller-beetle are perhaps a bigger problem in some ways than other types precisely because their performance is entirely independent of other top100 competitors.

Sure, you can abuse a bot's predictability in a game of chess, but can you do the same for something like a competition of who can complete a crossword puzzle first?

Karate Jesus · Jan 19, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Well spike bots are a more advanced application, as it would require a server of some sort to organize the spikes on each individual computer.

Um....no, no they don't. They are more complex, but you only need 1 computer to do it and you don't need a server. People do it all the time....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Player can create good enough of spikes themselves, so I dont see the need to bot such a thing.

So, you can spike in exactly 8-10 second intervals or exactly 3 seconds after a specific skill is called on a target?

I've seen a lot of GvG's where half the team was spike bots. It's practically bending one of the other team's players over every 10 seconds.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Also in reply to above quote by Pluto:

How can U abuse said interrupt bot? Faking is usually not an option, because of the many interrupts he has available. Not casting, well.. That's exactly what the bot wants you to do in the first place.

There isn't much U can do to that to gain advantage. Just like the weapon swapping bot, or the pick-up bot.

The DnD bot is the ONLY one that can be abuse, as I've seen it drop relics even when surrounded by an intire enemy team (or presents, better said). And this was also one of my many arguements to explain WHY it was a bot playing in the first place.

So in a way, your quote shows the possibility that Yur*** was in fact botting, as he was always doing the exact same thing "irrespective of what we did". He was Dropping and dodging even when surrounded, and body blocked, by 6+ people. (This was also how we stole a few relics, and managed to get a small chance against your guild, the fact that he would ALWAYS DnD a kd'ing snowball)

@Above post:

Ok, but here, GW ACTS as your server. My point was, for a spike bot to work, you need a universal timer, preferably something non-related to GW. But yes, the way you explained would work aswell, one guy pings target, 3 seconds later, everyone spikes that target. I don't see why U had to quote me on that, as here, the Guild Wars server acts as your universal timer.

Tough, if one player has, let's say, 3K ping, and another 50 ping, then the person with 3K will get the "target ping" 3 seconds later. So when he gets the target, everyone else is already spiking. Whereas with an independant server, (Which assumingly will give everyone 10-50 ping) everyone will get the ping at the same time, and the bot can then adjust the spike according to ping. (And whatever the delay on the ping-spike is, is the buffed you have for lagg) So even if you had 3K ping, the spike bot would activate your spike skill straight away as it recieves the ping, because it knows it will activate 3 seconds laters...

Hence why I said: "independant server".